Spiral Illusion

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Hokie on March 28th 2016, 8:23 pm

tmex wrote:Yes, Hokie. It is humbling, but we need that from time to time. It helps to keep a perspective on what we do.  You should really check out the Bertrand Paradox. It is another two decade thought process for me.

That one is going to take a while to digest.

Would seem like picking random points on the circle and drawing the chord then comparing to the triangle length would suffice.

The 3 scenarios proposed initially seem over constrained to be truly random.
avatar
Hokie

Posts : 65
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Lonewolf on March 28th 2016, 10:02 pm

tmex wrote:The "moon illusion" is another unexplained human perception failing. Why does the moon look bigger on the horizon that it does above the horizon even though it is closer to us when directly above us? It has never been explained by physicists, astronomers, medical doctors,...nada. Nobody knows the answer.
I heard a plausible explanation which uses the Ponzo Illusion as reference
Here is a demonstration diagram :

Lonewolf

Posts : 39
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on March 28th 2016, 10:12 pm

Yes, I have seen that explanation and many others. Do you believe it? That is the key question. I do not. I have looked at the horizon moon many times, and cannot reconcile it with an optical illusion. Could be. What else could explain it? Something is miswired in our brains to be sure.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Lonewolf on March 28th 2016, 10:32 pm

tmex wrote:Yes, I have seen that explanation and many others. Do you believe it? That is the key question. I do not. I have looked at the horizon moon many times, and cannot reconcile it with an optical illusion. Could be. What else could explain it? Something is miswired in our brains to be sure.

I do find it difficult to believe my lying eyes sometimes

however what are the possibilities that it could be a case of a humans ability to percieve the doppler effect (in this particular case) while a machine cannot
is that even possible ?
could it be that the light being emitted from the moon is being subjected to doppler effect at the human eye because of the high relative speed that we are traveling though space, so that as the light rays breach the horizon they are subjected to Doppler effect that can only be percieved by a machine as complex as the human brain. IE; when a lens or caliper or other mechanical device is added to the observation it cancells the effect by its presence....?
similar to the scientific theory that merely observing an effect will change its behavior

http://www.physicsclassroom.com/class/waves/Lesson-3/The-Doppler-Effect


Last edited by Lonewolf on March 28th 2016, 10:35 pm; edited 1 time in total

Lonewolf

Posts : 39
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on March 28th 2016, 10:35 pm

@ Wolfie

I don't have a clue. Nor does anyone else way smarter than me. Go figure.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Lonewolf on March 28th 2016, 10:43 pm

Food for thought
perhaps the movement of the earth and moon is at such a high rate of speed that the observed light waves are actually subjected to Doppler effect through our eye lens
so the moon appears larger
in order to prove the theory one would need a fully functioning human eye and human brain in order to get the effect
an effect that no machine could observe
To Wit :
The Doppler effect is observed whenever the source of waves is moving with respect to an observer. The Doppler effect can be described as the effect produced by a moving source of waves in which there is an apparent upward shift in frequency for observers towards whom the source is approaching and an apparent downward shift in frequency for observers from whom the source is receding. It is important to note that the effect does not result because of an actual change in the frequency of the source. Using the example above, the bug is still producing disturbances at a rate of 2 disturbances per second; it just appears to the observer whom the bug is approaching that the disturbances are being produced at a frequency greater than 2 disturbances/second. The effect is only observed because the distance between observer B and the bug is decreasing and the distance between observer A and the bug is increasing.

The Doppler effect can be observed for any type of wave - water wave, sound wave, light wave, etc. We are most familiar with the Doppler effect because

Lonewolf

Posts : 39
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on March 28th 2016, 10:47 pm

It could also be the "Dopeler Effect" - the faster new ideas come at you, the better they sound.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on March 28th 2016, 10:55 pm

@Hokie

I think the Bertrand Paradox is truly deep. References go to 2010 and beyond. This is not a game, and challenges our perceptions of math. The reality is, no one has a clue. That is deeply disturbing to me given that all three approaches seem perfectly valid. Again, the principle of "maximum ignorance" seems to prevail. I am going with it.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Lonewolf on March 28th 2016, 11:00 pm

tmex wrote:It could also be the "Dopeler Effect" - the faster new ideas come at you, the better they sound.  
ha ha
it must be frustrating being as smart as you think
especially when you aren't really
but think you are

Lonewolf

Posts : 39
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by KTMSwade on March 29th 2016, 5:59 am

Hokie wrote:
tmex wrote:After reading dozens of pages from mathematicians to metaphysicians to linguists, I have concluded that the correct answer lies in Edwin Jaynes' principle of "maximum ignorance" which he developed in response to Bertrand Paradox (wiki that one if you want something that will ruin your day). In a nutshell, the principle of maximum ignorance advises not to "overthink" a problem. Keep it simple.

Even though even expected value theory is correct and used all the time without much thought, there is no reason to apply it to the two envelope problem. Just because a theory is correct does not mean it does not run the risk of providing a nonsensical result from time to time. I know that sounds weird, but it is the mathematical equivalent of quantum mechanics. I have no other way to explain it. It all boils down to the intricacies of how a problem is posed, and it is a wonderful example to show how wrong you can be while standing in the path of righteousness.

So which is the correct choice to maximize earnings?
keep the first envelope or switch?

or is there not an answer?

KISS theory basically. Cash in hand. Based on $20 in the initial envelope, it can only be either a $10 or $40, you have a 3rd variable in that you don't know whether the $20 is the quotient or a value in the multiplying equation. Take the money and run, it's only a potential difference of $20 max Smile .

_________________
Ain't dead yet
avatar
KTMSwade
Admin

Posts : 207
Join date : 2016-03-21
Location : Lenexa, KS

View user profile http://dirtbiketalk.forumotion.com

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Hokie on March 29th 2016, 7:25 am

tmex wrote:@Hokie

I think the Bertrand Paradox is truly deep. References go to 2010 and beyond. This is not a game, and challenges our perceptions of math. The reality is, no one has a clue. That is deeply disturbing to me given that all three approaches seem perfectly valid. Again, the principle of  "maximum ignorance" seems to prevail. I am going with it.

The varying distributions of randomness depending on method seems disturbing. But the very existence of different "random" distributions points to something not right.  There is really only one random. (The chick you pick up at the bar when not trying)
avatar
Hokie

Posts : 65
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by shiftpro on April 3rd 2016, 1:16 am

What a wonderful thread, you guys rock.
avatar
shiftpro

Posts : 214
Join date : 2016-03-21
Location : BC

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by zilla on April 3rd 2016, 11:44 am

tmex wrote:@Hokie

I think the Bertrand Paradox is truly deep. References go to 2010 and beyond. This is not a game, and challenges our perceptions of math. The reality is, no one has a clue. That is deeply disturbing to me given that all three approaches seem perfectly valid. Again, the principle of  "maximum ignorance" seems to prevail. I am going with it.

What he said

_________________
Clip Board Sr.
avatar
zilla
Admin

Posts : 128
Join date : 2016-03-21
Age : 69
Location : Rock Springs Wy

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on April 3rd 2016, 4:50 pm

@Z

Stuff like that bothers me. Probably more than most people. It makes you begin to question what you think you know. When something so basic trips you up, it undermines a lot of other things you have in the "fact" storage area of your brain. Oh well, that is what alcohol is for.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by zilla on April 3rd 2016, 6:16 pm

Here's what I have found to be true. There are a lot of things that I think are correct in my brain that aren't.. Yup basic stuff trips me up more and more.. What I think I know and how it really is aren't necessarily the same thing..

Then there's the times I just pull something outa my ass that is totally the right thing to do or say .. Kind of a cosmic moment..

None of it makes sense..

_________________
Clip Board Sr.
avatar
zilla
Admin

Posts : 128
Join date : 2016-03-21
Age : 69
Location : Rock Springs Wy

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on April 4th 2016, 1:29 am

Yeah, I have the "eureka" experience from time to time. However, this stuff is truly different in that it undermines the entire analytical basis that we have been using for decades. It challenges the very possibility that you can pose a problem correctly enough to trust the math. It reveals a fundamental disconnect between human language and human thinking and mathematics.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by KungFuFighter on April 4th 2016, 9:03 pm

tmex wrote:The "moon illusion" is another unexplained human perception failing. Why does the moon look bigger on the horizon that it does above the horizon even though it is closer to us when directly above us? It has never been explained by physicists, astronomers, medical doctors,...nada. Nobody knows the answer.
I have always been a fan of it being some sort of  optical illusion.  

http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/

   The scientific challenge has been to explain why those equal angular sizes look unequal.

This article is long for three reasons.
1. It advances the relatively new idea (1965, 1970, 1985, 1986) that, for most people, the moon illusion begins as an angular size illusion which has several possible outcomes.

2. It reviews in detail the very few explanations of the illusion that vision scientists are paying the most attention to (and still researching). These theories are not simple.

3. It reviews in detail the latest theory (1985, 1986, 1989) that the moon illusion is an example of the less familiar, but ubiquitous, "size" illusion known as oculomotor micropsia/macropsia. Explanations for oculomotor micropsia then are reviewed.
For the moment, it seems to be the most satisfactory explanation.


   Oculomotor Micropsia

The angular size illusion has defied explanation for decades.  McCready suggests that the moon illusion is a special case of a lesser-known phenomenon known as oculomotor micropsia, which literally means “looking small”.  It is intimately related to oculomotor macropsia, which translates as “looking large”.

It is believed that the way we focus our eyes is affected by changes in the visible patterns near an object.  These patterns or secondary objects are known as distance cues.

Oculomotor macropsia is an angular size illusion caused by changes in the activity of eye muscles.  When one views the horizon moon, the details in the landscape form distance cues that sends a “very far” signal to the observer.  This has the effect of making the eyes focus at a distance much greater than where the object is, called overfocusing.  Hence, a smaller angular size is perceived.

Oculomotor micropsia has the opposite effect.  The zenith moon offers few distance cues, and the eyes tend to adjust to a relatively near position, known as the resting focus position.  This is typically about one or two metres from the face.  The perceived angular size becomes smaller.  A closely related phenomenon is night myopia, where the eyes tend to underfocus in dark surroundings.  This causes temporary nearsightedness, also known as “night blindness”.

It must be strongly emphasized that oculomotor micropsia and oculomotor macropsia are physiological and not geometrical effects.  Furthermore, they occur when viewing all objects, not just the moon.


Last edited by KungFuFighter on April 4th 2016, 9:34 pm; edited 1 time in total

KungFuFighter

Posts : 34
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by KungFuFighter on April 4th 2016, 9:18 pm

Here is a fairly small example compared to the celestial phenomenon of the moon along the horizon. The two inside circles are the same size.


KungFuFighter

Posts : 34
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on April 4th 2016, 9:40 pm

The metaphor is not compelling KFF. On the horizon the moon is next to a much larger sphere, the surface of the earth (which you can barely even see). If the metaphor was valid, the moon should look smaller on the horizon as the circle next to the bigger circles in your example looks smaller the the same sized circle next to the smaller circle.

I do agree that it is some sort of illusion. I just have yet to see any plausible explanation or even a decent parallel.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by KungFuFighter on April 4th 2016, 9:50 pm

tmex wrote:The metaphor is not compelling KFF. On the horizon the moon is next to a much larger sphere, the surface of the earth (which you can barely even see). If the metaphor was valid, the moon should look smaller on the horizon as the circle next to the bigger circles in your example looks smaller the the same sized circle next to the smaller circle.

I do agree that it is some sort of illusion. I just have yet to see any plausible explanation or even a decent parallel.
The spheres in that picture are not supposed to represent the sphere of the Earth, only an example of the distance-cue connection of the oculomotor micropsia/macropsia theory.

    The Distance-Cue Connection.
The visual angle contrast theory can use the fact that for many of these classic illusions (including the moon illusion) the changes in the visual angle subtenses of the context images happen to also be distance-cue patterns.

For example, a possible pictorial illusion with the Ebbinghaus pattern is that the ten context circles portray discs of the same linear size (linear size constancy), so the five portrayed discs at the upper right look farther away than the five at the lower left, because they look angularly smaller (thus illustrating the perceived angular size cue to distance).
Therefore, it can be argued that these context patterns act as distance-cue patterns that educe the relative visual angle illusion, providing a small imitation of the moon illusion (McCready, 1985.

Moreover, this distance-cue connection allows the oculomotor micropsia/macropsia theory to be proposed as an explanation for that angular size contrast effect (McCready, 1985), and as discussed in detail later, in Section III.

http://facstaff.uww.edu/mccreadd/sectionII.html

KungFuFighter

Posts : 34
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Lonewolf on April 4th 2016, 11:01 pm

I believe that if a photographic instrument demonstrates that the moon is the same physical measurement on the horizon that is farther up in the sky, then it would serve as an excellent example of cognitive bias.
It appears larger in my mind and that makes me believe that there is more to the illusion.
Cognitive bias is an extremely powerful factor that influences our lives

Lonewolf

Posts : 39
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Lonewolf on April 4th 2016, 11:06 pm

Cognitive bias is so powerful that even when presented with empirical evidence, our minds will choose disbelief instead.

Lonewolf

Posts : 39
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on April 5th 2016, 6:22 am

@KFF

I am quite familiar with your explanation. Remember, I have been looking at this on and off for a couple of decades now so I have pretty much read every explanation ever published on the subject. While I agree it is an illusion, I am not convinced of the mechanism.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by orangerider on April 5th 2016, 6:26 pm

shiftpro wrote:What a wonderful thread, you guys rock.
+1. Now i just need a joint and maybe i can keep up.
avatar
orangerider

Posts : 102
Join date : 2016-03-21
Location : Thousand Oaks, CA.

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by tmex on April 5th 2016, 6:35 pm

@orangerider

Yeah, a fatty is sometimes helpful. I used to do it a from time to time when I was working. Too many balls in the air. Without something to take the edge off you could go into a meltdown.
avatar
tmex
Admin

Posts : 41
Join date : 2016-03-21

View user profile

Back to top Go down

Re: Spiral Illusion

Post by Sponsored content


Sponsored content


Back to top Go down

Page 2 of 3 Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

View previous topic View next topic Back to top

- Similar topics

 
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum